Episode 2: Chosen Name & Pronouns
Bri Molitor
Hey everyone and welcome to Flashes of DEI, a podcast where we explore topics and ideas related to diversity, equity and inclusion, aka DEI. I'm Bri, my pronouns are she/her/hers and I am the Project Director in the Division of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.
Katie Mattise
I'm Katie and I use they/them/theirs pronouns and I serve as director here in DEI.
Bri Molitor
And today we are joined by some great people from across the university. Would you both mind introducing yourself to our listeners?
Lo Denmon
Sure. My name is Lo Denmon, my pronouns are they/them/theirs. I am the Assistant Director of the LGBTQ+ center.
Graham Callahan
Howdy. My name is Graham Callahan. My pronouns are they/them. I am a student here. I'm a junior. My major is theater tech. I'm concentrating in scenic and prop design. I'm an LGBT Studies minor, and I'm also the president of Threads, which is one of the student orgs on campus. Our focus is with intersectionality of marginalized groups.
Katie Mattise
That is a lot.
Graham Callahan
Yeah, I'm very busy. I mean, I only have two years left. I got to get things done. We're making moves.
Katie Mattise
We appreciate you both so much for joining us. We know- I mean just that was just a taste of what Graham was all up to. So we know that it's a busy time. So we super appreciate y'all talking with us and Bri and I are pretty excited to be able to talk with you both today and explore a topic that is always relevant, and that is chosen name and pronouns. And there's a lot we could talk about within the time that we've got today and this topic, so we're going to try and keep it contained to that half hour or less so you're ready to just kind of go for it.
Graham Callahan
Oh, absolutely. I am.
Katie Mattise
Alright, so our first question for y'all is just to give folks kind of an understanding of what we're even talking about here today. What are pronouns and what are chosen names?
Graham Callahan
I can talk about pronouns. So pronouns, they are part of language. You probably learned it back in like the second grade when you're learning like what a noun is, adjectives. It's you know, part of that. So a pronoun is basically any word that you use to replace a noun. Like the name of a noun, instead of you know, talking in a third person. When I say, you know, Graham went to class today, and now Graham is recording this podcast. I would say I went to class today, I'm recording this podcast. "I" is a pronoun that you use to replace my name. You is a pronoun, it's a pronoun, but then when we go to gender pronouns, that's usually like he/him, she/her, they/them, which is like a singular gender pronoun. And then there's also Neo pronouns, which are a thing. People have been like exploring different pronoun usage for literally forever. Literally, like in the 1800s. Some guy was like, hey, what do we use thon, thonself pronouns? So it's something that we've always like, always been exploring different ways to refer to ourselves. People like to have like different pronouns to properly like identify themselves in relation to their identity and their gender.
Katie Mattise
That was like English 201 right there. Lo, you want to talk about chosen names?
Lo Denmon
Yeah. So chosen names are the names that folks will use for themselves, especially those who are transitioning, and so that's the name that you should use for them. And that comes up in a lot of different contexts too.
Katie Mattise
Yeah. I mean, part of what we're talking about is why that's important. So you have let's start with chosen names. Why are chosen names important?
Lo Denmon
So it helps convey something about someone's identity, right? Names and pronouns both are how we refer to each other and, like just people in general and they're really deeply personal. So your name can say a lot about your gender. Your pronouns can say something about your gender if you want them to, and using the wrong name for someone can be really disrespectful. It's implying that you don't care enough to learn how to pronounce their name, that the name that they were given at birth is what you are going to use for them even if that's not like who they are.
Graham Callahan
So when you're born, you don't have a name for yourself. So your parents give you one and that's a gift and you know, one day if that baby decides, hey, this gift, isn't, you know, right for me anymore. I'm changing it to something else. There's there's no harm in that. I know that some parents get upset when their child goes and changes their name because they feel like it's like a personal attack to them or an affront to them. But that's simply not the case. Like if you gave somebody a sweater, you know and like years later, like they've outgrown that sweater and they don't wear it anymore and they went out got themselves a new sweater, not going to be like where's that sweater I gave you 20 years ago? Why aren't you wearing it anymore? Like Lo was saying it's important that people refer to people with the correct name. Like just because a name isn't somebody's government name - that's how I refer to my dead name or redacted. Like when I get any no mail from the government like ah redacted Callahan. So, you know, just you call people what they say to call you because it's a matter of respect, you know, and like respecting other human beings.
Katie Mattise
I really like that gift analogy. And how amazing would it be if there was like a return policy on names? Much easier.
Graham Callahan
Because getting your name like getting your name like legally changed is so difficult, really intimidating. I've been going by Graham for like, about five years now. And I'd love to get my name legally changed but I am like so daunted and like so scared because there are a lot of hurdles. You got to go before a judge. And certain judges aren't always the nicest. I mean, we live in Ohio. You know, Ohio isn't the most LGBT friendly place in the universe. So there's a lot of anxiety that comes with actually getting your name legally changed.
Lo Denmon
I've used that same like gift metaphor. I inherited some cool things from my grandparents when they passed away. And it's not stuff that I want to use in my day to day life, but I want to have it on display and I want to keep it so you know, there's also this idea that every trans person, every non binary person wants to legally change their name. First of all, like, like we're saying it's not accessible, but you know, there's some folks who have some attachment to it. So I got this this silverware from my grandparents right and like, I like it, I want to keep it but I don't want to use it every day. I have some other stuff. that I chose. And I don't want somebody else to come into my house and say like, Oh, but I found this other thing. Can we use that like no, like, I want to keep it and I want people to know what it is because it has special meaning to me. But I'm telling you to use this other thing because for me, like my my legal name is special to me. I was named after a song as were several of my other siblings and so I don't want to get rid of that. But then folks are like but have you do you want to change your name? Have you thought about that? And I'm like, Yeah, I thought about it and also know
Katie Mattise
Yeah, a super important point, right? Like each person's relationship to their name, whether it be government legal or chosen name is different. And so you know, use what people tell you to use. Always good practice.
Graham Callahan
Absolutely. And it's also like when it comes to names any person of any gender can have any name, you know, so it's like, people always expect you like, it'd be like, Oh, you're different gender. Oh, you need to change your name like you really don't. You know, names can be anything you want them to be.
Lo Denmon
It's so interesting to me too. And I jotted down some notes before we jump into this and this like leads right into it, but I have a friend whose name is Sword. And that is a name that he was named at birth. That is his legal name. It has not ever been changed, and folks will ever I mean, maybe they give him grief about it. I'm not living his life, but like he can say that that's his name. And because he's not trans folks aren't challenging it. But when it comes to trans non binary, folks, there's always this like, how did you get to your real name? Your real name that's, that's really interesting. Where did that come from? And I'm like, I don't know where to your name come from.
Graham Callahan
Yeah. And that's just like how even with pronouns people like will be so quick to correct their pronouns if they misgender somebody's dog. Like they will like freak out and they will care so much that they you know, call Oh, no, like, don't you see my dog is wearing a pink bow. Obviously, this is she her dog? How dare you? But then like change, people will be like, Oh, this is just so inconvenient and hard to give you like use the right pronouns for you. I think it all comes back to like, people not respecting trans people like they should.
Lo Denmon
Yeah, I mean, regardless of how somebody identifies, we should respect and use the names and pronouns that they tell us right, because it's not just trans people who use names that are different from their government name, or pronouns that are different from what folks kind of assumed their pronouns might be. And so, we shouldn't ask deeper questions. If we find out the person we're talking to or about is trans. Right? Just accept it move forward.
Bri Molitor
Alright, so I have a question. So there's been a bit of language change around both names and pronouns, and specifically, the language of preferred has fallen out of best practice. Could you touch on that shift and kind of explain why it's important?
Graham Callahan
Words not falling out of best practice enough because I still see it all the time. But yeah, so basically, a person's chosen name. It's not a preference. Like I feel like people a lot of people don't actually understand what the word preference means, or like what preferred means. So when it comes to like, my like, my chosen name, like my name is Graham that's not a preference. It's a fact it is a fact of life. That is my name. My name is Graham, to call me by any other name would be incorrect, and it would be disrespectful. Like same with my pronouns, like my pronouns, are they/them, it's not a preference. It is what it is, and people need to use it or there's gonna be an issue. Some people like who use like multiple pronouns, they may have a preference but when it comes to like, people's identities and like what they say it's not a preference. It's a fact. Like you wouldn't call a cis person's pronouns preferred, so why call a trans person's name and pronouns preferred it's just it's not it is something very...
Lo Denmon
Extract this this idea with me of my own like name progression process, right. So like, small and tiny human name was going by my first name, and then I didn't like it. And I don't think that at the time I understood that was like, dysphoria as a thing, right. And so I started going by my middle name instead. And then as I got older folks kept like, using the wrong version of my name, and that was the thing that finally got me to the point that I was like, alright, you are going to call me Lo. You are going to call me this. If someone tells you that they go by a nickname, then you use that for them. Right? Miley Cyrus like that's not her legal name.
Graham Callahan
Is it in Hanna Montana?
Lo Denmon
I don't know what her legal name is. But it's not Miley. But everybody's just like,
Graham Callahan
yeah, Lady Gaga. Like, I don't know.
Lo Denmon
I don't know her personally, I don't know her story. But I do know that Miley isn't her real name, but everybody just accepts that for what it is. And nobody argues about it.
Katie Mattise
And with Miley like, we don't need to know the story, right? We just need to know what like she wants to be called.
Lo Denmon
Everybody knows that. It's Miley Cyrus when you say her name and that's what that's what matters, right?
Katie Mattise
So for people who do want to respect and want to create space for trans people, or any people, right cis people to be able to share these aspects of themselves, their names and their pronouns. What are the things that folks can do? Or that they should be aware of when trying to create that space?
Graham Callahan
So one thing that is always good is starting by like just introducing yourself with your names and your pronouns, or like automatically. If like if you're cis, if you're trans, especially if your cis because as like a cis person being an ally to trans people, is making that space comfortable for other people to come out and like use their pronouns, but then also it's like not forcing people to say their pronouns, especially in situations where like, don't target people you think are trans like like, basically will be instances like you'll be in like a group setting on like introducing yourselves and some will be like, oh, oh, what's your name? Oh, what's your name? What's your name? What are your pronouns? Okay, what's your name? Like? So they just by targeting somebody who you think is trans, basically it's like outing them, making them the odd one out. So it's like, ask everybody or ask nobody, not every trans person wants their trans identity to be on display. That's perfectly valid, because being out and trans is a dangerous thing. So it's important not to just out people, but if you like, really don't know somebody pronouns. You need to know it's perfectly all right to take them aside privately, and ask them it doesn't always have to be like a whole public kerfuffle asking somebody what their pronouns are.
Lo Denmon
Getting back to that creating space for people. They're definitely things to not do. I thought of like all the other simple, easy tasks of like how you can create that space and be supportive. But I also think of the ways that we think that we're dealing allyship really well, we're telling people hey, we're really good allies to you, and then doing a lot with our actions that are saying something different. There might be this this tik tok that I saw where somebody was talking about preferring the company of someone who understands your gender for what it is and sometimes messes your pronouns up, versus someone who gets your pronouns right every time because they are being really particular about it, but they don't understand your gender for what it is. You know, I think it's also really important to understand the ways that folks can insist on the quality of their allyship and that be a way that they are hindering that space that is protected right or that it's safe.
Katie Mattise
And so like someone being performative, like making a big deal about getting your pronouns, right versus somebody who gets it right most of the time and works really hard to get it right but isn't like oh, did you see me I got your pronouns, right type of thing, right. Okay.
Lo Denmon
Because like there are folks who will communicate with you in ways that sort of indicates that like they are actually perceiving you as the gender that you're telling them that you are for sure that they get your pronouns wrong, sometimes, like they're aware of it and they're like, Oh, crap, I messed up and then they fix it internally, because they actually understand you as that gender versus someone who like, I'm going to get them right every single time because I'm a good person, but I don't see you as the gender that you are and you are what you were assigned at birth.
Graham Callahan
Yeah. It's like a matter of like memorizing pronouns, rather than like actually thinking of someone as the gender that they are.
Lo Denmon
Yeah, yeah. So I'm relatively new to the area. I'm thinking of the ways that I have to find like new doctors and therapists to write. So the things that folks put on their forms and like their intake stuff, the way that they advertise themselves to folks back home, I went to this place that their intake form had like gender identity, but then they had gone ahead and filled it in for me, right, like, that's not helpful. But I was looking for like, counselors and therapists and one of the things that I had and I wasn't even thinking about it, but they gave these bios of the therapists approaches to therapy, the different techniques that they use, I was like, Okay, this is this is cool, this is legit. And they were using third person pronouns for all the therapists are out, and then they got to the bottom and they're like, this person's pronouns are she her hers even though they had been using them? They the whole bio, right? Like, it was an afterthought. And like these, these micro communications about stuff like that really gets into this space of are you actually going to be able to support me or did you just go through a training and learn that that's the thing that you can do. And so you decided to do that, which is not to say that training itself isn't helpful. It helps you understand these different concepts, but it doesn't make you an expert necessarily. It doesn't like make you more capable and competent than the folks that you're an engaging with, with folks who are like part of the community.
Katie Mattise
Yeah, it's not an end all be all. And there are things that we get from trainings and try to implement that like putting pronouns right in a bio. How much cool would have been if that happened at the beginning right after their name, and so we can be taking these steps, but we might not be communicating, what we want to actually be communicating. So thinking a little bit deeper about some of the things we're doing and what messages we are intentionally or unintentionally sending.
Lo Denmon
Yeah. Like as part of the queer community, we have to measure those things. We understand those like micro level communications that other folks aren't picking up on.
Katie Mattise
So in your in your talk, you mentioned that people basically make mistakes, right sending unintentional message, I hope at least unintentional messages. Or, you know, I mean, social programming is super strong. I've been using them/them for like 10 years now. And legit a couple months ago, I accidentally "she-d" myself I was like, Oh my gosh, where did that come from? Right. So mistakes are going to happen when people are trying to get names and pronouns, right. So what do y'all think folks should do when a mistake happens?
Lo Denmon
I have a really good outline for how to give a good apology. It's from Rainia El Mugammar, and it's got like five or six steps to it. The steps of this apology are that you acknowledge that it happened, like you bear witness to the fact that no, this really did happen. Because marginalized folks in particular are gaslit so frequently right? So acknowledge that the thing actually happened, that the harm was committed to the emotional uptake. So creating space for whoever was hurt to feel their feelings without like policing of their feelings, or telling them that they're not allowed or that it's not appropriate to feel that way. And then center the hurt. So rather than thinking about your own feelings of guilt, think about the person who you have caused harm to right and center that identify so accountability and changing behavior, right. So taking ownership of the fact that that you committed the act of harm and that you are committed to like you understand what the harm was and why it was harmful, and that you are changing your behavior. And then the last step is like divestment from forgiveness. So investing in the labor of like reconciliation, rather than getting forgiveness from that person like it might that forgiveness might come but you still apologize whether you're getting that forgiveness or not. Right? But less less academic is apologize and do better.
Katie Mattise
Graham, anything you want to add on to that?
Graham Callahan
Making a mistake when it comes to like names or pronouns, it's just really important to like not make a big deal out of it because often there's like a like what happens is that someone like will use like the wrong pronouns or something like that. They tend to make a gigantic deal out of it. And that does seem to really center themselves. And they'll be like, oh, like, I'm so sorry. And I'm such a bad person and da da, da, da, da, da, da, and then that puts the trans person like in the position of having to like then assure this person, but they're not a bad person at all. It's fine. And other than that, which is like, ridiculous. So one analogy that I really like is like the analogy of like, when you step in the back of someone's heel, when you're walking in like, you know, it's not like comfortable or whatever it is, sucks, but like when you do that, you're like, Ooh, sorry. And then you're more aware next time, Don't do it again. Rather than you know, like, if you do that, you're not going to be like, Oh, my God slay me where I stand. I deserve that. I'm the worst like, No one. No one does that. Like that's the same energy that you bring. People make mistakes. Words are hard. I'm pretty sure that every trans person has like misgendered themselves, on accident at some point, but it is a matter of like, doing better. And then when you're trying to do better like thinking about why you think you keep making that mistake, because for some people, when they continuously misgender people, it is it goes back to the fact that they don't actually see that person has that gender so it's so easy in their mind to continue to misgender them because they're still thinking of that person as the wrong gender. I'm an LGBT Studies minor okay. I do love queer theories I love that stuff. I love Love me some reading, love me an article love to like, think and consider and like marinate on concepts such as gender. And I feel like a lot of people don't do that like especially like cis people. I feel like they don't think that legitimately. If there's somebody who keep having issues like misgendering somebody not thinking of them as that gender like I highly encourage people to like, sit down and literally study gender. Think about it. Expand your mind, like expand your worldview. When it comes to gender. It's like, oh, you keep mentioning this person like, oh, well, they don't look like a guy. What do you think a guy looks like? Why do you think a guy looks like that? How do you think the guy should act? explore those things. Reconsider all you've been taught because that's the thing. Living in this western like society. We have been taught that gender is a binary you're either a man or you're a woman. You're born that way you stay that way. A man does this and this and this a woman does that and that and that. And it's all these like super stagnant ideas. So I feel like people need to really move out of those ideas, because that's going to end up helping and I think like addressing those things at the root are actually going to help people actually be better allies.
Bri Molitor
And those ideas are so ingrained to like you really do need to do the work to kind of unlearn things that were going generations on generations of what we've been taught. Yeah. So I'm kind of shifting away from the concept of allies and that frame, what would you say to anyone who is using or thinking about using names or pronouns that weren't assigned to them?
Graham Callahan
So the first thing like I would say is congratulations and you are so brave, literally just taking the first step of exploring one's gender in a society like this is an incredibly brave thing to do. And like I'm very proud of those people. Because it can be incredibly scary. Even doing something like beginning to privately refer to yourself with a different name. Like that is a very scary thing to do. So taking those like those first steps, they're hard, but they're definitely worthwhile. Because to stifle down those emotions, and those ideas that you want to explore isn't healthy, and then it only makes those things come up later. I would say, actually, there's a thing that I think it might still exist, like I used it back when I was like, first exploring myself, I think in like 2015 and it's an online thing called the pronoun dressing room. And basically, it was this little site where it was basically kind of like, like a Madlib type thing where you could like put in a name, put in your pronouns, and then it creates a little story using those names and pronouns. So you can like read about yourself, that was a way that I could like, start exploring it and it can I know it can be really scary. When you start the process of wanting to like, tell people, I would say starting with people that you trust, people that you're close to, and then like slowly, expanding outward, not being afraid to try different pronouns like even if you're like, Oh, well, I'm a girl so I should be using she/her, a girl can use he/him pronouns. There are plenty of women who use he/him pronouns. So it's like not to limit yourself to the idea of what pronouns you think you should be using. Women can use any pronouns. Men can use any pronouns non binary people do they don't just use they/them pronouns. So being able to explore that when it comes to finding like a new name, having patience with yourself, finding a name that suits you can take a while. Like if you want to change up your name every day, that is your prerogative like you are not being a burden to anybody. You're not being irritating, being able to like explore those names and pronouns freely, that is something that you deserve, and the people around you should be respecting and honoring that. And if they're not, then it's not it's not a huge problem. You're not doing anything wrong. People should be respecting you as you go on your journey with your identity.
Lo Denmon
I'm going to put, like the counseling degree that I earned to get us here and remind folks, you know, you can go at your own pace. You're not any less valid if you take smaller steps to get where you're going because your story is about you. You're not less of who you are, if you haven't come out to certain people or in certain spaces, because you don't necessarily owe that to them. You owe yourself safety and security above others knowing your identities and you get to judge who is safe for you.
Bri Molitor
Important stuff and good reminders and good messages. For folks who are listening in are coming from Kent State specifically, what resources should they be aware of that they can tap into either to get support in who they are or to learn?
Graham Callahan
Well, Lo and I both work at the handy dandy place called the LGBT Center. Yeah, I know, right. But yeah, the center is just a really amazing place. We are open five days a week Monday through Friday 8am till 5pm. People can just waltz on in you can make appointment with Lo, the assistant director, Ken, who's the director. We have a bookshelf full of books about identity and gender and things so people can explore. If you just want to have a casual chat, we always have interns here. You can talk to people like people who don't work here who come in. We love having conversations because all day we just talk yeah, we have like other like more formal resources. We have like a whole pamphlet filled with trans resources. And if there's something that you need that we don't have, we will try our hardest to get you what you need. Because that is what we are here for it.
Katie Mattise
I'll shout out a couple ones I know of to just because I know I asked the question I'm answering my own question, but our Student Legal Services can help students with legal name changes as long as you pay that student activity fee or something. So know that that's a resource and we have an imperfect but we're hoping to make it consistently and constantly better, chosen name process for faculty, staff and students, which is accessed through Flashline and for each of those populations. So those are a couple other things you can tap into we're working on a pronouns one, so hopefully, you know whenever we record our part two of this we can say we've successfully done that.
Graham Callahan
And then we have ally training is a thing if you're like an ally and you're like trying to become you know a better ally to groups.
Lo Denmon
We do have safe space training. We also have Trans 101 so you have to complete safe space training to get Trans 101, Trans 101 always filled up pretty quickly because there are lots of folks trying to get into it. The best thing that you can do is come and chat with us because one-on-one conversation that's the way to go. It's personalized to you every time you know everything that you need.
Bri Molitor
So before we wrap it up, Graham and Lo is there anything else you want to add?
Graham Callahan
Oh, thank you for having me on. I'm really happy that I was able to do this podcast, because I love to talk. And I love to talk about LGBT related matters. So this was a super fun time.
Katie Mattise
Thanks for being on here.
Lo Denmon
But just echo what Graham said like this is so important, and I appreciate y'all bringing attention to it. So thanks.
Bri Molitor
Thank you both for joining us for this episode. It's been a great time I've enjoyed myself, and thanks all for those who are tuning in and listening. If you're interested in learning more about DEI feel free to check out our website kent.edu/diversity. And if you've got a topic you'd like us to discuss, feel free to email us at diversity@kent.edu or connect with us on social media @DEIKentState across platforms. We'll see you next month with a new episode.
All
Bye!
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