Episode 4: An Intro to Critical Race Theory
Katie Mattise
Hey everyone and welcome to Flashes of DEI, a podcast where we explore topics and ideas related to diversity, equity and inclusion. I'm Katie and I use they/them/their pronouns and I serve as director here in DEI.
Marquis Davis
Hey, what's going on everybody? This is Marquis Davis. He/him/his, I'm a project coordinator in DEI.
Katie Mattise
And today we are talking about critical race theory. And this is something that's been an extremely hot topic lately, but it's something that's been relevant and around and important for a lot longer. So to help us learn and discuss CRT, we are joined by a dear colleague, Dr. Krista Porter. So would you be willing to introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners?
Dr. Christa Porter
Absolutely. Thank you both for having me here and providing the space for us to sort of chat so my name is Dr. Christa Porter, she/her pronouns. I am an assistant professor in higher ed administration at Kent State. Been here. This is my fifth year. Oh, yeah. Right. And so been in the faculty life for four years even before that at another institution. So I'm rounding out nine years here as a faculty person. All right. So so yeah, so I teach grad students, doctoral and master's students around you know, what it's like to work and be and do and learn right in higher ed and institutions, different types of institutions, both at the domestic and international level.
Katie Mattise
That's impressive. That's cool. Thanks for your work.
Dr. Christa Porter
Absolutely.
Marquis Davis
Alright, so thank you so much for joining us and being willing to share your knowledge. So Katie, and I are very excited to talk to you about CRT and to dive in a little bit more deeper. So, Dr. Porter, are you ready?
Dr. Christa Porter
I am ready.
Marquis Davis
So we'll start off with a first question. Can you explain to us a little bit what CRT is or critical race theory is?
Dr. Christa Porter
Sure. So without getting too much in the history, however, definitely paying homage to those who created right and I'm all about naming. And so it's absolutely important that we name that it's a perspective that centers race and racism, right? It disrupts dominant structures, and it helps us examine racial injustice. Right. So So who started it? Why did they start it? So it starts in critical legal studies so it started off in law right a bunch of grad students and litigators. And folks of color said, we know that there's the civil rights movement. We know that there was legal reform that happened out of the civil rights movement. But what if we joined sort of this legal reform as well as critical legal studies? Because we're not necessarily happy right, and contend with some of the legal reform that came out of the civil rights movement and so definitely have to put into the space some of the names and the forefathers and mothers right so Derrick Bell, Richard Delgado, Kimberly Crenshaw, Alan Freeman, Cheryl Harris, Mari Matsuda, Charles Warrants and Patricia Williams. So again, so folks who started the work, right, and now it's moved into education, politics, social systems. And so basically, that's sort of what it is, right? It's a perspective. It's a way we can examine law. It's a way we can disrupt sort of the dominant structures in our institutions. And when I say institutions, I'm not talking just higher ed, right. I'm talking about the legal system, the criminal justice system, right? Education, k-12, sort of those. So at the root of it that's what it is. I'll stop there. Yeah.
Katie Mattise
I think that's helpful to hear, like what it is, and to also I mean, you name dropped. So for folks who are interested in reading some of the founding texts, those would be good names to Google.
Dr. Christa Porter
Absolutely.
Katie Mattise
It's kind of confusing and tough to get into. And so it's it takes work to learn more about it. So I appreciate this kind of, here's a dip, a dip your toe into the water that is critical race theory. So I think right now people are talking about critical race theory in ways that aren't actually true what it is. So could you potentially talk a little bit about some of the myths or the things that are out there that people attribute to CRT that aren't actually part of what it is?
Dr. Christa Porter
Absolutely. So let me explain the tenets and then say the myths, right, the actual tenets of critical race theory is one the centrality of race, right that race and racism are embedded in the fabric of our society as a whole. Right? It's, then it's about interest convergence, right. So what is interest convergence? It's when folks want to racially advance people, people of color, but in service to white interest. Right. So, so thinking of like, um, school integration versus desegregation, right, who really was benefiting from desegregation and integration. Was it really the black communities or was it public interest white lawyers, right. whiteness as property. This idea of a right to exclude whose body is hold, who has control over their body. Kimberly Crenshaw added to intersectionality of course, right, the idea of the axis of oppressions. And then there's counter storytelling, right? So the belief that folks of color have to be able to speak and articulate their experiences from their own standpoint. So that's what it is. Right? Well, what is out there and unfortunately, that has is under attack and legislation state legislations around the country is this idea that CRT posits white folks as racist and automatically an oppressor to other folks right. That's not what it is. CRT does not say that one race is superior to another race, right. CRT is not an attempt to make folks feel bad when when I say folks, particularly white folks, right? It's not the 1619 project, right that has come up a lot in conversations. Nicole Hannah Jones is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who created the 1619 project, as a journalism project, right. So sort of a vehicle through which you can talk about the history but that's not CRT. Right CRT is the lens and the framework, right? It's the language that helps us sort of make sense of like, wow, this is how law is actually codified in a way that continually oppresses folks, or that doesn't account history, right, all of these things. So, the tenets and then the myths. Yeah.
Katie Mattise
So I think that's helpful because especially because that takes you a little bit deeper dive into what CRT actually is. And then I really like and appreciate your distinction between 1619 project which is history. And how history is not critical race theory, but we can view history through a critical race theory lens,
Marquis Davis
And so even as you are talking about the structure and everything and looking at it like CRT from the lens, so how can CRT be used to help us to understand the system's, structures and the things that may be going on around us?
Dr. Christa Porter
Yeah, so I can answer that question two ways, right. So there's a couple of scholars that have really taken up CRT as a lens and moved it from sort of this legal studies into education. Right. So it started off again, putting names out there, it started off and sort of the K 12. Right. What does it mean to look through K 12 school districts and K 12 education through a CRT lens right, so Gloria Ladson billings, and William Tate sort of put out there, right. seminal article around what does this look like and how can we use this in our K 12. But then it's moved into higher ed in the sense of being taught in graduate school, some undergrad classes, but mostly graduate school. Laurie Patton Davis, Shawn Harper, Jessica Harris, right. Who was okay, how can we look through college admissions? How can we look through student development? How can we look at right student activities, all these different sort of functional areas we see and we engage with in higher ed through a critical race lens, and particularly Laurie Patton Davis's article around disrupting the pros of higher ed, right, how do we get away from this just naming and language but actually being critical? You know, and addressing the ways white supremacy has been embedded right in our hiring institutions over the years.
Katie Mattise
I think that's an important thing to think about too, right? Because, especially if we want to use critical race theory or any theory that teaches us to be critical and examine the systems and structures we're working within and working with, we have to move past just thinking about and think about how do we apply it right? What can we do? What can we shift? What can we make happen? That can make positive and inclusive change, which is the harder question. But an important one to think about.
Dr. Christa Porter
Yeah. And it's really like to kind of go with your point, Katie, is folks want to be strategy oriented and sort of results oriented. But are we willing to do the work of thinking about disrupting sort of this dominant white centered white washing? I'm thinking of different buzzwords that folks use of our history, right of our context, and we can't just think of history outside of higher ed like, history built higher ed. Right, a lot of our institutions, housed enslaved folks. Right and so what does it look like for us to actually not engage in interest convergence, right for the sake of benefiting white folks, but to actually disrupt some of the language, the policies, the practices that continue to perpetuate white supremacy?
Marquis Davis
Yeah, I think too, when you like you said we're putting language behind it. It starts speaking the truth. That the ruffling of the feathers people is like, Oh, you're talking about what we have been doing for years and then so now we're just gonna like, blow smoke. Most people are what I've seen and heard, especially in the politics barrier, right. They're using CRT to kind of like, just move away from like, what the real issue is, right?
Dr. Christa Porter
Yeah, that's another tenet that often comes up is this critique of liberalism and without getting too much in depth, right. So this how folks are like, Oh, well, let's do affirmative action. Let's you know, it's value neutral, like yes, let's write but at the end of the day, whose value, right, there's still a hierarchy. Yeah. And Are you really willing to do the work of dismantling the hierarchy? Right, otherwise, you're just sort of perpetuating the status quo?
Katie Mattise
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the toughest part for a lot. Of folks to figure out or swallow is that if you actually engage with critical race theory and use it as a lens, it requires you to imagine the world completely differently and to work towards that and that's like can be a scary proposition for people but also an exciting and energizing proposition. So I don't know all this is making me want to take your class.
Dr. Christa Porter
but I like how you did it. Which is really hard like it's hard is relative right cuz some of us work all the time. But how do we decenter whiteness? Right? Right. We're whiteness is not the end all be all whiteness is not the standard, right? The original, you know, forefathers and mothers said no, like, this is not okay. The civil rights movement got us a lot right. And no doubt No, you know, no negating with the folks in the civil rights movement. But it's not enough. Right? Right Stuff is still you know, supremacist activity and discrimination and oppression was still happening. Right, right. Even beyond that, and so how do we really decenter whiteness and sort of reimagine, as you said, Katie reimagine what this could look like, without whiteness. At center. Yeah.
Katie Mattise
Deep questions and, and the important ones, right? If we actually want to move forward, we need to, we need to center those questions and really reflect and I think that gets back to that to like, that action piece is important, but it's making it's reminding me of another conversation I was happening recently where if you jump right into action, you're gonna get kind of what's happening in popular culture right now where people are just totally misusing misunderstanding and actually causing harm. Yeah. So it's important like if you're listening to this Google some of the names that Dr. Porter mentioned, and some of the resources will drop in our episode description because you need to do that self work piece too. And I mean, I, I studied this in grad school. As I'm talking I'm like, I need to do so much more reading to keep on moving forward.
Dr. Christa Porter
A benefit though, now is that it's legible. Right? It's not just law. Right. Right. It could actually legalese language like folks are actually taking up CRT and applying it to, you know, what does this look like? Like I said, you know, college admissions, what does this look like in this? What's the look like in this? And so absolutely, you know, I look forward to sharing it's the ways that we can continue to engage it.
Katie Mattise
Yeah. mentioned a couple names and a couple of things that folks can Google but are there any other resources or people that you'd shout out for folks who want to learn more? And especially folks that make it a little bit more accessible?
Dr. Christa Porter
I answered that in two ways, right? One is folks of color and scholars with minoritized identities have sort of taken up CRT and sort of repurposed it in ways that makes sense. So there's this crit, right ladder. Black crit Critical Race feminism, Asian crit, tribal crit. So all of these are particular populations were in like, okay, critical race theory is cool, right? That's the framework. But now let's let's overlay this with students with disabilities. Let's overlay this with indigenous folk and tribal crit was overlay this with a particular feminism, that, you know, comes out of critical race theory right to live the critical race feminism. So those are absolutely areas of research. that folks can engage. But, you know, definitely sort of just thinking about the forefathers and the mothers and then the more current Gloria Ladson. Billings, Shawn Harper, Laurie Patton. Davis, Jessica Harris, right, sort of those folks. Absolutely. There's a lot out there. And so folks can absolutely engage and make it legible to their experiences. But you have to want to do the work right, right. To engage clarity, you have to want to say wow, yeah, like this is a system here. And let's look at the lens through which the system continues to sort of perpetuate itself.
Marquis Davis
So it's different tenets to CRT?
Dr. Christa Porter
So there's different tenets. Yes, different tenets, but there's also various branches
Marquis Davis
Yeah. Because once you just say like the different branches of it. Both Matt and Katie is like, Oh,
Katie Mattise
We got really excited.
Marquis Davis
Once you once you find something that's really interesting about the subject, you start to go down a rabbit hole. And once you get into that rabbit hole, he's like, Oh, this resonates with me. And then so now you start to learn a little bit more about it. And you start like as Katie was saying, doing the work, and then you find your passion in it right? Where wherever you are, you can be like to say you can be in higher ed you can be in DEI you can be whatever. And then to like you said untangle the word. Love it. Yeah, absolutely. So, before we actually wrap up with our questions, are there any other things that you think individuals will need to know about CRT?
Dr. Christa Porter
I think one thing is is problematic and being sort of name this at the beginning. is reading what's current but not going back? Right. And so you can't talk about critical race theory unless you talk about the way it was used right within the legal sort of studies and how it's evolved. Right? You know how the tenets are sort of evolving. And it's not just sort of one doctrine. It's not sort of just one, all of the forefathers and mothers didn't just use critical race theory the same way. Right. It was, it has evolved, right? Is it still a perspective? Is it still a framework? Absolutely right. But reading sort of the history a little bit and most of the articles that I've cited are most of the scholars that are excited, have done the work, right. So they pay homage to those who came before them. They talk about how it can be used. That would be the first thing is just don't do it. Again, don't engage in interest convergence. Just because it sounds good, right? Oh, I'm I'm uh, you know, engage Gregory's to just know like there's so much more to it and then be willing to do the work right to really decenter, you know, whiteness within our systems. You know, I reflect on how do we like wow, you know, in my role as a staff person, as an administrator, as a student as a faculty, how do I center whiteness, right. How do I perpetuate methodologies approaches, text practices that collude right or perpetuate this idea that whiteness center or white is best white as right try?
Marquis Davis
Yeah, thank you, even though this was a short snippet of it. It had some nice nuggets and gems of wisdom around to it. Even for us to to learn more about it. Like we said, There's tenant, whether there's more branches. So again, thank you for that.
Katie Mattise
Yeah, super appreciate it. And hopefully the folks who are listening in will hopefully whetted their appetite and they can dig a little bit deeper and you know, do the work that we need to do and ask ourselves, the tough questions that we don't always ask ourselves, and, I mean, if you're against it, maybe take a class of Porter.
Dr. Christa Porter
It's all good. It's a good class. You can still do the work we can all read and engage and listen, listen to the podcast and But I do I do want to say, I love the Maya Angelou quote. Right. It's when we know better, we do better. Yeah. Right. And so I think if you're really dedicated and committed to continuing dei work, critical frameworks is one of the pieces right grounding yourself in a systems based sort of acknowledgement of what's embedded. Right, what are the ways we've gone about business and how can we disrupt those ways? To me, that's the core of true DEI work and so this is an absolute important valuable critical lens.
Katie Mattise
definitely thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.
Dr. Christa Porter
Absolutely. Thank you for the invitation.
Marquis Davis
Always, always, thank you all for tuning in and listening. If you are interested in learning more, feel free to check out our website Kent.edu/diversity.
Katie Mattise
And if you've got a topic that you'd like us to discuss, feel free to email us at diversity@kent.edu or connect with us on social media @DEIkentstate. I can see it across multiple platforms. We're gonna see you next month and next year, which is wild because that's a whole new year with an episode. Right. Thank you. Again, Dr. Porter, and thanks for your listeners.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai